tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post112538863419321395..comments2024-01-31T09:33:05.146-08:00Comments on Two World Collision: The Rules Don't ChangeErichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03948061964482528393noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125808899904941792005-09-03T21:41:00.000-07:002005-09-03T21:41:00.000-07:00I agree with you, and yet, I will point out that f...I agree with you, and yet, I will point out that for gay Christians, that covenant often doesn't have the kind of public supports that allow for such a STRAIGHT development. Gay commitment amongst many very commited Christians happens in stages, myself among them. And in Jesus own day, commitment happened in stages among opposite sex marriages, betrothal was for a year, then marriage...it's messier than we would like it. The point is promises before G-d. And that is the locus we should be moving for in sex. <BR/><BR/>As for how does a same sex couple express that union between Christ and the Church. Just like the sacrificial love of an opposite sex couple. Check out some of the back thoughts of the Anglican Scotist on my sidebar.<BR/><BR/>pax Christi,<BR/>*ChristopherClosedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04752595488795781895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125608372360809242005-09-01T13:59:00.000-07:002005-09-01T13:59:00.000-07:00Was just at Greenbelt and one of the sessions was ...Was just at Greenbelt and one of the sessions was a panel discussion comparing marriage and civil partnerships from a legal and theological view. Of course, this was in the UK where civil partnership is available.<BR/><BR/>I also attended a late night session regarding the church's attitude towards sex and one person on the panel talked about how the notion of 'pre-marital' sex is actually a fairly recent sociological construction and isn't supported in the Bible very well (as the Bible has its own, culturally biased take on what "marriage" is). The real difficulties from my point of view are coming up with reasonable definitions of "marriage" and "sex" that are biblically based.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06559254262445527142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125593599955571152005-09-01T09:53:00.000-07:002005-09-01T09:53:00.000-07:00oh, sorry, the post above was by me:shannonhttp://...oh, sorry, the post above was by me:<BR/><BR/>shannon<BR/>http://www.livejournal.com/users/divinemaddness<BR/>skyefall@hotmail.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125593479087776762005-09-01T09:51:00.000-07:002005-09-01T09:51:00.000-07:00this post is really interesting to me. i am a quee...this post is really interesting to me. i am a queer christian and i am dating someone. but i am waiting to have sex with her until we are married. it's been interesting to watch her deal with this because that wasn't a comittment that she had but she was willing to wait because she wanted to be with me. now she is happy to be waiting as well. it's a struggle to wait. and it's hard because there really aren't any queer couples to look up to who hold this as a value. for me the decision came about to wait because it was always something that i valued: waiting until marriage. why should that change just because i am queer? i don't think it should.<BR/><BR/>thanks for this post. just wanted to share my story. i am hoping to marry this woman that i am with, and i think our sexual union will be even sweeter because we waited.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125580074124374942005-09-01T06:07:00.000-07:002005-09-01T06:07:00.000-07:00That's a good point too. What is sex? For many C...That's a good point too. What is sex? For many Christians who truly believe that sex should be saved for marriage, oral sex becomes ok because it's not actually intercourse. But to me it's all the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125568012145894572005-09-01T02:46:00.000-07:002005-09-01T02:46:00.000-07:00You asked a great question! I've struggled with th...You asked a great question! I've struggled with this a lot myself. <BR/><BR/>I'm gay and have been in a committed relationship, but still find it hard, personally at least, to equate a partnership between two men or two women with a marriage between a man and a women: one that is meant to reflect the relationship that Christ has with His church.<BR/><BR/>If then in my view (which I'm not saying is the correct one -- I'm still on this journey myself), "marriage" is not an option for two people of the same sex, all of the marriage verses in the Bible would become sort of irrelevant, and any sex would be out of the question.<BR/><BR/>This leads to another question I've puzzled over: how do you define "sex" between (in my case) two men? I won't get into any graphic details (don't worry!), but I can't help thinking that a lot of gay guys, myself included, aren't into what many people think of as "gay sex". The description of Jonathan and David's relationship in 1 Samuel, which I take as non-sexual, is one which many gay men -- Christian and non-Christian -- would find natural and fulfilling.<BR/><BR/>Just a thought I've been pondering. Love your blog -- keep it up!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125525733250511152005-08-31T15:02:00.000-07:002005-08-31T15:02:00.000-07:00Hey Eric. Man, you continue to impress me! I'm not...Hey Eric. Man, you continue to impress me! I'm not gonna weigh in on this issue, as I see the issue as part of something bigger; not isolated on its own.<BR/><BR/>I do want to thank you, again, for wrestling with all this and finding the answers for yourself. Not too many people have the courage to ask themselves the hard questions.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14382478207432395072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125496854354395362005-08-31T07:00:00.000-07:002005-08-31T07:00:00.000-07:00I have heard some Christians question the rules re...I have heard some Christians question the rules regarding premarital sex... but in the end, they all (at least as far as they told me) ended up waiting until they married.<BR/><BR/>I'm not entirely sure about the original Greek meaning of the word "fornication"... I could look it up, but I am way too tired right now. I will say though, that it seems to me that according to Paul, the only outlet for sexual release is marriage ("better to marry than to burn with passion")... and this comes from a man who was celibate... and during a time when, as I understand it, women married very young but men tended to be much older (in order to be financial stable to support a family). Paul makes no distinciton between genders when it comes to his rules about sex. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, those are my thoughts. I haven't thought about this particular issue that much though, so I am far from an expert.JJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14689406528121267867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125487723414193172005-08-31T04:28:00.000-07:002005-08-31T04:28:00.000-07:00Hi, today is Blog Day too. Happy blog day to you. ...Hi, today is Blog Day too. Happy blog day to you. I have linked you on my site here : <A HREF="http://www.gombar.in/happy-blogday" REL="nofollow">http://www.gombar.in/happy-blogday</A> . Please feel free to visit my site anytime and also if you could make a post about Blog today that would be great.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125453665889110812005-08-30T19:01:00.000-07:002005-08-30T19:01:00.000-07:00I've just heard that in Biblical times marriages ...I've just heard that in Biblical times marriages were generally arranged, and girls usually were wed from the time they could menstrate. Also, the boys were expected to get 'experience', while girls had to remain pure. Clearly things are different now. People date, often for years. In general, people wait much longer to get married. Who knows what that means for Christians today. I'd be curious also to know what the greek word for fornication is and what it meant during the time of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>The other thing that comes to mind is how we've kind of disregarded some other Biblical ideologies because it doesn't fit in with our current society (of course there are many other theologically based reasons). Most churches now accept people who have been divorced, and even marry couples who have previously been married. If you take a literal translation of the Bible, this in Biblically unacepptable. <BR/><BR/>Also, the Bible also suggests in many places that slavery is acceptable, but we don't see many Christians today who believe that. (Thank God)<BR/><BR/>Finally, if we literally went with what the Bible says, women would have to remain silent in the church at all times. Most Christians don't currently believe this was intended for all women.<BR/><BR/>Just some further thoughts.<BR/><BR/>-QNYAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125427596227241392005-08-30T11:46:00.000-07:002005-08-30T11:46:00.000-07:00I'd be interested to hear more about any views tha...I'd be interested to hear more about any views that sex should <B>not</B> be barred before marriage in regards to cultural context in ancient days. Does the previous anonymous commenter or anyone else have any info regarding that view?Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03948061964482528393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125423354596805472005-08-30T10:35:00.000-07:002005-08-30T10:35:00.000-07:00I agree with your statements - your views should b...I agree with your statements - your views should be the same for straight and homosexual relationships, but I think the theology behind barring sex before marriage should be more thoroughly examined. I'm not saying I have decided what I think the Bible is saying, but I know that there is room to argue on both sides when taking into account the cultural situation of ancient days, along with the literal translations. I definitely think sex should be reserved for a committed relationship - it can be so damaging outside of a committed relationship, which is where I think God is coming from. The point it, what exactly defines a committed relationship. <BR/>-QNYAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125414869799430002005-08-30T08:14:00.000-07:002005-08-30T08:14:00.000-07:00In all fairness, there are a goodly number of Chri...In all fairness, there are a goodly number of Christians who'd be a bit reticent to say that sex is only good inside the bounds of the 'marriage' covenant.<BR/><BR/>I agree with your point, though, Gay or Straight, your understanding of sex in the covenant (or not) should be the same.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06960732995828439466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14457001.post-1125389523933804012005-08-30T01:12:00.000-07:002005-08-30T01:12:00.000-07:00I just wanted to weigh in and say that I agree wit...I just wanted to weigh in and say that I agree with you entirely. This was my main frustration while reading "Stranger at the Gate". I believe, that as a Christian, sex is to be reserved for marriage... the question that I'm asking right now is whether or not marriage is an option for me as a gay woman... not whether or not I can have sex. <BR/><BR/>I do understand (I think) some of the reasons behind many gay Christians seeming to abandon this standard -- mainly the fact that marriage has been barred to them, but there have always been other options... other commitment ceremonies (that I believe God could bless if He chose to, whether or not they were legal or not) or public covenants. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, I don't want to end up just writing everything you wrote again... I just agree with you, the rules shouldn't change.JJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14689406528121267867noreply@blogger.com